Having taken a roadtrip from the UK through Eastern Europe in January, I'm now on the road (or the air, more accurately) towards the Love146 Round Home in Asia. I have to move quick while the Icelandic volcano is on lunch break. I found myself in a window seat next to a couple of what my dad would call ‘hard working lads’: sun drawn skin from a construction site causing an unnaturally furrowed brow, one in his 50’s the other mid 20’s.
I'm flying out of the UK at a time where the first 3 pages of most tabloids are still the story of the Cumbria shootings of Derrick Bird which left 12 dead. On the morning I leave the headline is "Gunman's Double Life as a Sex Pervert" accompanied by images of a Thailand sex bar with scantily clad girls dancing. My neighbour for the flight introduces himself by showing and tapping his finger on the page stating, ‘Now that’s got to be a bar we need to find.’ Our destination for this flight is Bangkok, Thailand.
He seemed to assume that my travel had similar interests. I commented that I wouldn't be stopping there, but heading on to the Philippines. "Not been there," he replied with a grin and a wink, "We'll have to try that on our next trip." As though I had superior knowledge as a fellow sex tourist.
As it turned out this was the older gentleman's fourth trip to Bangkok. This occasion it was to be a celebration of his divorce. He followed by some other friends on a later flight would be spending six weeks in Bangkok to watch England play their world cup matches in tacky English-friendly bars and to have sex with girls. In fact the five friends common denominator was that they all go to the same pub in the UK. It was clear that the guy in front of me had been primary evangelist to the group concerning the draw of sex tourism. He was a true believer, and this, the best possible use of his time and money.
I sat and wondered at how the sexualisation of culture and the normalisation of sexual exploitation is far from something passive. In fact it is being asssertively pushed along with a nod, a wink and a rye smile. It's not hidden smokey corners, but around the open public places of life and work. In fact, the UK killer in today's tabloids had often shown his friends video footage of his own sex acts with young girls in Thailand.
I asked older gent, "Is it true that girls come up to you as soon as you walk into a bar?"
“You bet.”
"But doesn’t that just get on your nerves?"
“Only when you have been up all the previous night having sex with them!”
I could tell I was in the presence of a genuine stereotype: a guy who travels for sex because it's easy, uncomplicated and no longer on his moral compass as even questionable behaviour. He was another one of those guys who genuinely feel that the girls he pays for sex want to be there. He believes that he is infact doing them a favour, or worse (such a common statement), that they are there because they enjoy it. He has no comprehension that the smile masking their suffering is to avoid a beating from their pimp for disappointing a client.
I found out later in the flight that these weren't rough tough co-workers. It was a father and son. Slightly stunned, I sat and pondered our own western mindset and moral decay where a father would want to share is participation in sexual exploitation as a bonding experience with his own son.
Those who travel for sex tourism undertake a dehumanisation of the other, in this instance those who are in the bondage of sexual slavery, either forced by fear of violence or through the oppression of economic poverty. For those of us who live in places where our fellow countrymen are booking sex holidays, we must resensitize ourselves to the humanity of these wonderful, beautiful and precious people. We must spread the word that these women and girls are someone's daughter, sister, or mother. Lets work to abolish myths that tell us they are less than worthy of our high regard and respect. Let's tell their stories. Let's honor their lives. Let's sing and shout about their humanity.

Wow.
Submitted by Julie Presley (not verified) on Wed, 06/09/2010 - 2:28pm.
My stomach is sick. Did you give them any inkling as to what your travel purposes actually were? I can't imagine sitting there and not losing it!!!
I would have had a very hard
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Wed, 06/09/2010 - 2:46pm.
I would have had a very hard time keeping my composure while listening to the comments made by your seatmate. Even more nauseating that he was not only willing, but eager to share such acts with his young son. Our culture is in a very dark place, and it is our distinct responsibility to shine the light in the darkest places wherever they may be.
well done Gaz
Submitted by J (not verified) on Wed, 06/09/2010 - 3:22pm.
Once again you say it like it is. May I use this in the school workshops too? I am so pleased that here in Greece a global ad agency has taken on the public awareness campaign and focuses on DEMAND. The campaign looks smack into the eyes of the utlimate perpetrator and questions them. Even the text in the print ad is going to be along these lines : You my feel as though you are a client, the raw truth is that you a rapist. I have been on similar flights from Asia to Europe with what I guessed to be similar co-passengers. Said nothing but felt sick sick sick.
Wow is right
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Wed, 06/09/2010 - 3:40pm.
Wow is right
did you say anything?
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Wed, 06/09/2010 - 4:09pm.
It seems that you did not choose to speak about who you are and perhaps share your own beliefs about this. How interesting that you were placed to sit right next to this perpatrator and said nothing? It is possible to speak in love and that we may all be able to converse with those who are in great need of hearing this perspective. Maybe he would not care or do anything different, but maybe he would think about it...maybe. Isn't it worth it to try?
The ads J mentioned
Submitted by Rachell (not verified) on Wed, 06/09/2010 - 5:19pm.
Those ads sound dead on! We need some of those to run in the US. They'd at least make people question their actions, if not change them.
I have to agree with
Submitted by Laura Foster (not verified) on Wed, 06/09/2010 - 6:51pm.
I have to agree with "Anonymous" above: did you take the opportunity you so readily had to say anything? To, say, tell the story of "146"?
thanks for writing this
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Wed, 06/09/2010 - 9:33pm.
thanks for sharing, it is truth that needs to catch our attention. many men (and women!) do indeed travel for the purposes of sex, and it is rampant. we do need to take a stand to stop the demand! if we can catch a glimpse of the looks on the faces of the bar girls in bangkok, the small children in svay pak, we will see the devastating effects that sex tourism has on the many, many girls/boys and women that are violated by this type of behavior. i too have had instances of talking with sex tourists and seen many as well...they come from all over, they go to so many nations...they could be your next door neighbor!!! lets get educated about the realities of trafficking and the global sex trade, lets pray and raise our voices, do whatever is appropriate to see this abolished.
thanks for writing this
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Wed, 06/09/2010 - 9:36pm.
thanks for sharing, it is truth that needs to catch our attention. many men (and women!) do indeed travel for the purposes of sex, and it is rampant. we do need to take a stand to stop the demand! if we can catch a glimpse of the looks on the faces of the bar girls in bangkok, the small children in svay pak, we will see the devastating effects that sex tourism has on the many, many girls/boys and women that are violated by this type of behavior. i too have had instances of talking with sex tourists and seen many as well...they come from all over, they go to so many nations...they could be your next door neighbor!!! lets get educated about the realities of trafficking and the global sex trade, lets pray and raise our voices, do whatever is appropriate to see this abolished.
I've been asking myself a lot of questions
Submitted by Gaz Kishere on Thu, 06/10/2010 - 1:16pm.
I have been asking myself a lot of questions since I arrived in Manila and will, I am sure, be kicking myself all the way to my next encounter with a sexual predator. The sad answer is no, I didn’t confront their thinking. I have been around pimps, pushers, traffickers and victims in Europe where its is the girls who are crossing borders to a location for sex. Until this moment I had not had contact with 'users', where it is they who are crossing borders for sex...This was totally new.
Honestly, I was utterly shocked and rattled by the normality of it all for them. My thinking process was dominated not by confronting 'them', or challenging' thier worldview' but by the confrontation taking place within 'me', the challenge to my own worldview. I was very uncomfortable as I realized the stewardess and others on the flight probably thought we were traveling together and may have assumed I was a sex tourist as well. As I looked around the plane, I wondered how many would even care. How many were for going for the same reasons. This thought has plagued me since arriving in the Philippines.
Sometimes there are encounters with sexual exploitation where I am an activist; engaging with people and on behalf of people around these issues - where confrontation can be appropriate action. And sometimes there are times, like many this past January driving the trafficking routes of Europe, where I am a painfully silent observer, learning and gathering intelligence for later battles.
Occasionally I walk away wondering if I lost a fight or missed an opportunity. In this instance, I wore the mask of an interested party and gained as much real information as I could. Sometimes I walk away feeling I have failed someone; a victim or a perpetrator. In reality, I have to draw comfort that I did learn and gain understanding and while I may loose some fights, we will ultimately win the war. This helps me sleep at night, on the increasingly rare occasions that I am able. It certainly makes me value those who work covertly on the streets in victim identification and those who work undercover as a primary focus of their contribution to ending child sex slavery.
As I have said above, much of what took place in the interaction with my two traveling companions was about a work going on in me, and trust me, it has and will continue to add fuel to the fire of my own Abolition endeavors alongside you.
hope not lost
Submitted by Sex Trafficking (not verified) on Fri, 06/11/2010 - 3:39pm.
I think that situation you were in is tricky...in that you had an experienced sex tourist with you who will likely not believe anything you tell them. Like throwing pearls to the pigs. However, I do think that there is hope for the son who probably was not quite as experienced, and maybe still was softer to the truth as information. My husband had a similar experience recently, but when he tried to get a word in, the guy dismissed any suggestion that any of the girls are there unwillingly. Tough situation. Each one requires discernment. Thanks for sharing your story. Michelle
as a former victim of sexual
Submitted by chartreuseviolet (not verified) on Sat, 06/12/2010 - 5:11pm.
as a former victim of sexual exploitation in the good ol U.S. of A., i can tell you predators don't give a f*** about what they consider your antiquated morality. these tourists may have justifications for their behavior that help them sleep at night a little better, but excuses are not requisite. they'll rape and exloit whenever the opportunity arises, and laugh at your attempts to conjure some empathy from them. they do not have any to conjure because they are PREDATORS. an eagle feels no guilt when he eats a vulnerable baby rabbit, and these pieces of slime are no different, except eagles are doing what is in their nature and not for the purposes of taking pleasure in anothers suffering. if these pieces of human garbage were not rapists they would recoil at the thought of having so much power over desperate women and girls. don't let them fool you, their excuses are meaningless or they would be having consentual sex with women in legal brothels or even their local bars. there is nothing you can do, sans castration, life imprisonment or execution. it is in their nature.
Win Lose or Draw?
Submitted by Brodie (not verified) on Mon, 06/14/2010 - 1:10pm.
Gaz..... Bless you Brother!!
Thanks for sharing your humanity with us. I can't imagine it's easy to be in that seat. And it's presumptious of me to assume that I know what the right thing to do is in that situation.
It puts J3:16 in a different light, doesn't it? That's the world he so loved... MAN! You're on my prayer hit list for continued strength, grace and wisdom!
The beauty of the work you're doing is that there is no Win Lose or Draw.... this is Kingdom work! Loving the orphans!
Bless you!
Thank you for sharing this
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Mon, 06/14/2010 - 4:27pm.
Thank you for sharing this tricky situation. I'm sure you still feel stunned. I suspect I would have had trouble NOT saying something, yet I can see how that might not have been the wisest thing, as you were able to glean more info from their perspective. Perhaps you would have had regrets if you *had* said something? I have a neighbor where I live who works as an exporter in SE Asian countries and lives much of the year in one of those countries where he has a home. I get the sense that this is probably life for him, although I do not definitively know. I've asked God if maybe He planted me here b/c He wants this guy saved and proactive for the girls' cause (as someone who would no doubt be effective via his extensive contacts). Yet I feel paralyzed as a single woman when it comes to interactions w/ him. Somehow your story reminds me of this. Prayers of blessing~
ahhhg! i wish i could kick
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Sun, 06/20/2010 - 12:12pm.
ahhhg! i wish i could kick them in the teeth or at the very least record all of their words, get places, incidents etc. and have them arrested! monsters like them are walking around us every day and we don't have a clue. as a teenage girl with a younger sister and cousins i just want to gouge these ppl's eyes out! while it is regrettable that u didn't talk to them about what u were doing it is also impressive that u didn't physically assault them. Thank u for this post. it is helpful to see who the perpetrators are...sometimes i just picture the 50 year old man, but it's 20somethings, dads, "hard working"people...it makes me sick.
I Get It
Submitted by Pam Hogeweide (not verified) on Wed, 06/23/2010 - 4:56am.
Great reporting. You had a rare opportunity to be an undercover reporter with a sex tourist who freely let his guard down. As others have pointed out, it's unlikely that you would have had an affect on him in that moment, and speculating serves no one. What was accomplished was some powerful "surveillance" of the cavalier, casual attitude of one human being whose sexual appetite leads him by the c*ck across borders where he supposes his money is helping willing prostitutes...and of course it must be noted that some women are willing and choosing of their own power and volition to prostitute for a host of reasons. But it is so highly established that many women and youth are coerced or worse and will not benefit in any way from sex-for-hire with a horny Englishman. I think it's understandable that you let your shock become a means of simply listening and learning what you could about the psyche of a sex tourist. How can that information now be used to educate and deter potential sex tourists? That is the question that remains on the table.
I'm stunned on many levels. I
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Wed, 07/14/2010 - 8:58am.
I'm stunned on many levels. I don't know how you kept your calm while you heard this man speak about girls and his actions in such a disgusting manner (and when you found out it was a father and son doing this). I think the very first time I learned about children being sexually exploited was from the film Born into Brothels. That same year, I was visiting family in India. During my 6 month stay, I was completely unaware that Kerala (a state in South India) had a serious problem with sex tourism. How does a person lose their humanness? It's just very sad.
I'm stunned on many levels. I
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Wed, 07/14/2010 - 8:59am.
I'm stunned on many levels. I don't know how you kept your calm while you heard this man speak about girls and his actions in such a disgusting manner (and when you found out it was a father and son doing this). I think the very first time I learned about children being sexually exploited was from the film Born into Brothels. That same year, I was visiting family in India. During my 6 month stay, I was completely unaware that Kerala (a state in South India) had a serious problem with sex tourism. How does a person lose their humanness? It's just very sad.
You all are sad...
Submitted by The Voice in Your Head (not verified) on Sat, 07/24/2010 - 9:59am.
First of all, about 90% (no I would eve go as far as saying about 80% of the time it is just sex between two consenting adults) now me personally, I despise and hate with all my heart the men who go over to Asia and have sex with minors, those guys should be locked up never to see daylight again. And in prison let god knows what happen to them. But for the majority of it, its just normal sex between adults. Maybe 3% of the girls in Asia are there because they are forced to. So please stop with all the human trafficking bull*hit because its nonsense. Most of those WOMEN make more money than the average middle class American doing what they do. Now for that small percentage that IS forced to be in that type of environment I hope the people that place them there are caught and arrested. But I repeat ALMOST ALL OF THE WOMEN WHO ARE THERE, ARE THERE BECAUSE THEY WANT TO BE THERE. This is a one sided discussion and in one sided discussions only one side tends to be right (the side that has the voice, an not a voice of somebody who has been there +to thailand+ but from an outsider who wants to change the world). Is it partly because they have nothing else better to do or is it because they have no friends who knows. But all in all I think child trafficking and prostitution is absolutely wrong, BUT sex between two consenting adult whether they are from two entirely different parts of the world or right around the corner from each other is up to them. I don't care what the next person does with whoever as long as they are old enough to consent. Its not any of my business and therefore I keep out of it. Thanks. Be well.
ahhhg! i wish i could kick
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Sat, 10/16/2010 - 3:44am.
Would your anger have anything to do with you yourself being a fat arsed, repulsive chav, driving 'hard working' young men to other countries? Whatever the lads intended to do to the lasses in Thailand, it was not likely to 'kick their teeth in' or 'gauge their eyes out.' Look within, before you judge others. Perhaps find a moral religion. Buddhism as opposed to a pub, for example.
tsk, tsk
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Sat, 10/16/2010 - 1:28pm.
Life is all shades of grey, dude. By painting Thai bar girls as hapless victims falling prey to ruthless predators you absolutely positively have more contempt for them than most of these sex tourists you so abhor. Lots of these girls willingly enter the trade simply because the pay is awesome when compared to slaving away 14 hours a day in a factory manufacturing your Nike sneakers. It is a conscious choice they made. Would they probably have chosen another profession if this offered the same or almost same pay grade? Off course. But this planet is not a perfect one, so these girls make the most of the opportunities they get. They don't feel sorry for themselves. Actually, most of these girls don't see themselves as prostitutes. It's a complicated matter and you don't know half of it. Sincerely yours, a former whore mongerer who has been married with a former Thai prositute for over 15 years now.
There are many shades of grey...
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Thu, 10/21/2010 - 7:16am.
Prostitution in SE-Asia is a complicated matter. The prostitutes who cater to Western males play only a minor part in the over all sex market in SE-Asia. Most of the prostitutes cater to local males. The worst off are forced to work as sex slaves under terrible conditions; many work by their own decision for few years as prostitutes making decent money which is often sent home for to support a whole family; while a few women work on the opposite end of the scale as well educated hostesses in 'Gentlemen Clubs' in Bangkok whose entrance fees Western middle class visitors never could afford. Actually the most terrible kind of prostitution is aimed almost exclusively at Asian males. That is that virgin teenage girls (and boys) are sold to brothels for to cater locals and Asian male visitors. These women are being beaten, drugged and locked at the brothels. And they are forced to have sex without condoms and suffer from STDs and HIV. Cambodia is well known for taking a major part in this part of sex trade. In regard to prostitutes catering to Western males: Those working in beer bars and gogo bars in Bangkok and Pattaya: These women are no sex slaves and there are no pimps involved. These women are free to enter _and_ to leave the sex trade. It is usually their own decision for to become a prostitute, since as a bar girl they earn easily the double amount of Thai Baht of an average Thai worker with basic education. Which means, it is not the choice between starvation and prostitution, but between an a very hard and badly paid job or a hard and better paid job. Of course working as a prostitute can severely damage body and mind of the women. Drugs, alcohol, bad treatment by some men, illnesses, lack of sleep, e.g. will take their toll over the years. Some will leave the trade better off, like with a house for the family, most will have gained nothing, while others will end as drug addicts, alcoholics, and/or with HIV... There is another major difference between prostitution for Western and Asian males: The Western aimed market is highly visible to the Western audience (tourists, journalists, NGOs), while the really dark part of the prostitution for Asian males is invisible to Westerners. It is not only invisible but also extremely dangerous for Westerners to look for it, since usually a part of the local elite (business men, military, police, politicians) is involved in this. This might be a reason why Western NGO's (many of them Western fundamentalist Christians) only concentrate on the 'easy' part of the Asian sex trade catering to Western males. Digging into the real sex slavery could be life threatening for NGO workers... And as cynical as it sounds, but to showing one Western male with an 18 year old prostitute generate much bigger headlines in Western media (and more funding) than 10 Asian pedophiles.
Another shallow moral crusader
Submitted by Missionary Work (not verified) on Thu, 10/21/2010 - 8:54am.
A chance encounter with an airline passenger - and a shallow moral judgement on a society and culture the writer knows nothing about. The writer is portending to be an anthropologist with defined knowledge of Southeast Aian cultures. And spewing generalizations with zero research or first hand knowlege. Thailand is a beautiful country. Mountains, plains, and white sand covered beaches. A tourist destination for families, backpackers, and singles. The nightlife in Thailands major cities is no different then any other large city thoroughout the world. It just may be more open and accepted. Those business people that travel to New York, London, Amsterdam, Tokyo - may know that there is nightlife available. In these other areas of the world - it just might be a little more subtle. The legal age for any gal to work in any night club or bar in Thailand is 20 (not 18). No one in Thailand uses the term prostitute. Only Western moralists do. Most of Thailand is rural farming poor. With these night clubs and bars - the gals have an opportunity to earn a decent pay. And with this culture - the gals send money home to help their parents. Sorely lacking in any Western country. Thai gals view the well being of their parents as a duty. The Thai culture does not leave this obligation to the government - as in Social Security in the US. Thai gals that do work in night clubs and such do willingly for pay. Most are quite happy to have risen above the poverty that they came from. Western men do pay for companionship with Thai women. Western men do pay for companionship with Western women - just a different form of payment. Such as marriage, divorce, lawyers, cars, furniture, and fancy clothes. Get off your high horse and view some of the trees thru the social forest that you can not and do not wish to view.
LOL
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Sun, 10/24/2010 - 2:38pm.
Lot's of inaccuracies and assumptions in the original article, and then some of the comments are worse. "Undercover interview with a sex tourist who let his guard down." (!) Dude, all you need to do is ask. No, not on some grubby sex tourist site, the Lonely Planet forum will do just fine to get clued in. I won't attempt to do that here.
LOL
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Sun, 10/24/2010 - 2:40pm.
Lot's of inaccuracies and assumptions in the original article, and then some of the comments are worse. "Undercover interview with a sex tourist who let his guard down." (!) Dude, all you need to do is ask. No, not on some grubby sex tourist site, the Lonely Planet forum will do just fine to get clued in. I won't attempt to do that here.
where choice is not choice at all
Submitted by author (not verified) on Wed, 12/22/2010 - 6:24am.
Thank you for your reply, it was good to see a calm and considered one amidst some more reactionary ones. Prostitution is a contentious issue in general and Asia is not different. I would probably suggest that, in my view, given a different set of cultural and economical circumstances very few women would 'choose' prostitution. I dont think many would desire multiple sexual partners on a daily basis and related risks of infection, violence, unwanted pregnancy or even just the toll it takes on the body and the sense of self worth. I recognise that amidst many bad, exploitative and poverty based options, it is a valid one. But i dont consider such a choice a free will choice, for me free will relates to those who have the option of choosing a source of income and provision which is healthy, positive and adding to a persons sense of value and worth. Many in Asia will not have such options, its a choice of sorts, but not one of free will and has little to do with a persons hopes and dreams, more one of survival and basic provision for both themselves and their family. I would like to say, or at least hope for a future where prostitution was considerably further down the list of choices and options for young women. Then i think we can say such things are undertaken by choice. Also - being force by a person is not really that far removed from being forced by a system or culture which lacks choice and options, surely it is just another form of coersion and duress? Thank you for you contribution to the conversation.
interview
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Sun, 02/06/2011 - 9:14am.
Hi my name is Katy I am an undergraduate student working on human trafficking as a theme for a journalism class. If you would be willing to talk to me even over skype of email for ten minutes it would be greatly appreciated. kkhdd@aol.com
this is sad. i had a hard
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Wed, 02/16/2011 - 5:28am.
this is sad. i had a hard time reading this. :(
This is ridiculous this
Submitted by gijo (not verified) on Wed, 02/16/2011 - 5:29am.
This is ridiculous this shouldn't be happening anywhere anyplace anytime nonononononononono BIG NO-NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"an eagle feels no guilt when
Submitted by TVIYH (not verified) on Thu, 04/14/2011 - 5:48am.
"an eagle feels no guilt when he eats a vulnerable baby rabbit" Quote from an earlier post. So what's the problem?
Travelling is my passion: an
Submitted by WendyCorvel (not verified) on Fri, 12/09/2011 - 1:32am.
Travelling is my passion: an unforgettable experience, positive emotions, meeting new people. I heard a lot about Uzbekistan, and really wanted to visit this country. On the internet a lot looking for Uzbekistan tours and agencies. But I liked only one agency. In fact very much advise you to visit this site, there are many different routes, and very importantly - the prices are reasonable. Here is the website - www.people-travelz.com
It's great to read something
Submitted by Margie (not verified) on Sun, 01/08/2012 - 6:01pm.
It's great to read something that's both enjoyable and provides prgamtisadc solutions.
VmAyjR bsukyaiyuthh
Submitted by mubcdkjl (not verified) on Mon, 01/09/2012 - 12:08am.
VmAyjR bsukyaiyuthh
While the concept of sex
Submitted by markt5645 (not verified) on Sun, 03/11/2012 - 7:05pm.
While the concept of sex being found in a content definitely most of the individuals are take more interest on these topics therefore everyone should take some special note on these concepts. Escort Melbourne
Would your anger have
Submitted by Sex Tourist (not verified) on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 8:56pm.
Would your anger have anything to do with you yourself being a fat arsed, repulsive chav, driving 'hard working' young men to other countries? Whatever the lads intended to do to the lasses in Thailand, it was not likely to 'kick their teeth in' or 'gauge their eyes out.' Look within, before you judge others.
Reading your post and its
Submitted by Jinri (not verified) on Sat, 04/07/2012 - 2:43am.
Reading your post and its comments; some may be right, some may be wrong. You really can't say they are there because they want to. Economy in Asia is different; most of them are third-world countries. So maybe they prefer this occupation because it pays well but if they would have a choice of having an office job that pays as much as they earn today, they wouldn't be on those positions right now.
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